d/f, I get your point but that was BEFORE Nov 1st 2003 when Bush issued Military Order No 1,which turned him into a GENERAL and not a democratic President and essentially did away with CONGRESSIONAL and the Judiciary powers(to object)and left EVERYTHING in the hands/power of the EXECUTIVE BRANCH between then GENERAL BUSH and the Secretary of Defense(martial law),under whom "military tribunals shall have exclusive jurisdiction"(Section 7/B1).
This actual law made Bush a General,with all power to him and the Army only(Martial Law),which is the nearest a Democracy gets to an absolutist Monarchy,of which Her Majesty Elizabeth has,herself,been a part of,since the Magna Carta.
By signing this Law on Nov 1st 2003 Bush gave himself UNLIMITED POWERS,similar to King Charles I. Hence all freedoms brought over from the Magna Carta and Habeus Corpus etc were made MOOT!
Since then our Congress and Judiciary have never fully regained their autonomy from each other and the Executive Branch,to restore the Democratic safeguards(checks and balances). We may not have a monarchy but the nearest it gets here is a CORPORATE OLIGARCHY(especially under Martial Law)and that's what we STILL have to get rid of.
With Military Order No 1,Bush made himself more than a figure-head Monarch(like Lizzie)and donned the EMPEROR'S ROBE.LOL.
I want to see the Executive,Congressional and Judicial branches of government BACK in each of their PUBLIC SERVANTS separate 'boxes' and not stepping on each others toes,or tripping each other up.Then there will be accountability and justice.

http://www.aclu.org/natsec/emergpowers/14352leg20020416.html

AMEN g/r, your annoyance is warrented. But, the President of the US is limited within the powers of the office. The President has to rely on Congress & the House to pass any legislature. Even the Queen of England can't make policy, just recomendations, I'm a former British citizen so know what I'm talking about in that respect.
Right now I think that the answer is on the State level. All fair minded Americans need to dig deep into the characters of their State Congress persons, Representatives, & all political appointees. To whit, the leaders who preach "Family Values" but follow their own personal agenda. Party designation is not an issue in this respect, only honesty counts. Once we clean out the liars & fakers from the States we may have a better chance of cleaning up the Federal Government.
Our President,(no matter who it is), has so much info coming over his desk that he has to rely on key personnel to point him to the most important issues, but, there are forces that conceal, or circumvent the real truth. It is our job to ferret out these liars & get them out of office.
Our President is not God, he has to be able to rely on his advisors & that is where we can make a difference. We need to get those out of office that are just trying to line their own nest, or further their own narrow agendas.

JULIER, please keep writing, but send your letters to our President, hopefully he will receive your thoughts & consider them.

TRH, I hope we can influence a change, but we need to have the American people behind us to curtail the Multi Corps control of the World. It all boils down to PROFIT that is destroying land, plus human & animal lives throughout the World. If we refuse to purchase things that contain these products such as "PALM OIL", these Multi Corps will have to shut down their operations because they are unprofitable.

As a postscript: There were those in the last Administration that tried to make things right, but they were undermined. I am sure that Colin Powell is a good man, but he was sacrificed by our former President & his voice was buried. It is terrible that a good man was so vilified. Shame on the previous Administration for trying to defame a man with such high principals.

"Can you tell me if we are now a country with a two tier system of justice?"
julier

We used to have,and should STILL have,a three-tier system of Government where it involves,equally,the CONGRESSIONAL exercise of decision,the EXECUTIVE authority to authorise that decision,and the JUDICIAL authority to practise due process and rule of Constitutional Law.
That system allowed all the safeguards/checks and balances to be held intact to ensure a valid democratic 'innocent before proven guilty' system.
BUT,that arrogant executive attention-deficit buffoon called Bush trashed ALL THAT when he signed laws after 9/11 that dispensed with the Congressional decision and Judicial control and PUT EVERYTHING in the hands of the EXECUTIVE BRANCH,which is run,not by Constitutional Statesmen/Judges/Generals,but arrogant,profiteering corporate CEO's who know NOTHING about running a country in a time of peace,never mind running it whilst it's under attack from CRIMINALS(not sovereign state/nation armies even)outside.
THEY EVEN MADE AMERICAN TORTURE LEGAL and NORMAL,even tho' they are STILL parties to the international:
-GPW(Geneva Conventions),
-UN CAT(Convention Against Torture:and other Cruel,Inhuman,Degrading Treatment or Punishment),
-ICCPR(International Convention on Civil and Political Rights)
-And our own Constitutional EIGHTH AMENDMENT!

What we have had with Bush since 2001,is in actual principle an ABSOLUTE MONARCHICAL DICTATORSHIP,not seen here since British King Charles was the boss!

'King' Cheney and 'Princes' Addington/Bush/Yoo et al inihilated,or made impotent,everything but the EXECUTIVE(royal)branch,which to me is the biggest TREASON any administration has committed since the end of WW2.
Since then,we have had an economic 9/11,caused again by the very same people and their cohorts in the finance(looting) industry,including the Reserve/Treasury thieves,and now those very same,or similar clowns, are recycled on Obama's administration(must have been a deal in the small print to allow him in).
They have a revolving door of UNPATRIOTIC vultures! Crooks!
Eric Holder and Obama have a chance to restore the 3 separate branches of Government that will put our democracy,due process,rule of Constitutional Law and it's checks and balances back ON TRACK.
They just need the courage to shake off the special-interest MAFIOSAS(many of whom are not even AMERICAN) and come back home to 300 MILLION AMERICANS who are living near to,OR IN,THIRD WORLD CONDITIONS right here on US soil,eating the crumbs while the executive CROOKS/LOBBYISTS waltz off to TAX HAVENS overseas with the REAL LOAVES of 'bread'!
We don't WANT A DICTATORIAL MONARCHY any more!
That's why we voted for Obama.
He promised to return to Constitution.
Not INCREASE TAXES,when we are paying back MORE THAN we already really OWE!
Provide civilian JOBS,JOBS,JOBS on American soil.
Give single-payer health care to ALL EQUALLY.
Give America an education system that it can be proud of instead of EMBARASSED BY!
Now don't tell me,"Yeh but he's nice,and only been in Office Blah,Blah..."
Obama has had ample time to make BIG DECISIONS and CHANGES that benefit 300 million Americans and not a handful of corporate financial crooks and executive WAR CRIMINALS!
He has even started doing SIGNING STATEMENTS to kill his promises to us,for Gods sake.
Something he SWORE,ON CAMPAIGN CAMERA,NEVER TO DO!

All the 'ROYALTY' of the last admin should be in court for TREASON and WAR CRIMES.
Bush and Cheney and thier OLC usursped Constitutional law for their own EXECUTIVE purposes and REWARDED THE CRIMINALS within their 'establishment' with BAILOUTS,extortionately obnoxious bonuses and PROMOTIONS even,in the Finance,Military and Secret Services!
When what they all deserve is just an ORANGE jump suit,a toilet and 3 meals a day for the rest of the lives!!!!!
LUDICROUS!
I keep writing(not emailing,they just get shredded)and phoning and bombarding my Senators/Reps and the White House with all my outrages and complaints about their neglect of PUBLIC SERVICE to the people who VOTED THEM into office in the first place.
Even Obama is merely our TOP PUBLIC SERVANT,and is accountable also to we the people.
I have reminded him,Biden and many others that their PLEDGE of Allegiance and Oaths of Office to the people and the Constitution come above ALL OTHER THINGS.
And that they are there to serve the people who VOTED THEM IN to public service office.
And they get NO DONATIONS,NO VOTES,NO SUPPORT FROM US until they start looking after America under Constitutional LAW!
And all that is because I love my country,have fought for it TWICE,and will not it run by incompetent or arrogant(or both) KINGS and PRINCES!
I am waiting for "Blessed Good Leader" Obama to show his TRUE 'BALLS' of courage,morality,honor and integrity,and loyalty to AMERICA first,by making the RIGHT decisions and doing the RIGHT thing CONSTITUTIONALLY.
And,making his admin do the same things!
Give us back our Constitional democracy and rule of law,or you get ZILCH from us Barack,except our dissent,objections and mistrust.Bush gave us enough of that to last A LIFETIME.
So,until Obama/Biden and Holder PONY-UP to "WE THE PEOPLE" they get:
No votes!
No taxes!
No spending!
No investing!
NO CONFIDENCE!
Obama swore an oath(as did Holder et al) to preserve,protect and defend the Constitution and rule of law.
On top of that Obama made campaign promises to us in exchange for our votes!
We the people are ALREADY giving you EVERYTHING,and more,of things we have LITTLE ENOUGH of already.
Obama,don't give us WORDS!
Those are abominations!
Give us honorable ACTIONS!
Do the right thing by us,and we will be behind you all the way.
But we will not follow a demented Bush-like dinosaur off the cliff to EXTINCTION!

We are watching you Obama,our PUBLIC SERVANT and every move,decision you make!
Remember,the White House you live in is paid for BY US!
Be a good tenant and respect the Constitutional rules of 'the house'.
And we MAY let you stay LONGER!
If not......we'll find someone else.

This Gov is no real Change from previous ones. It was the policies of our leaders and practices of our businesses that created the need for all of this in the 1st place. Once again, it is the people who will pay for it. No accountability = no trust. No trust = a vote of no confidence. Eric Holder will not change. He suffers from the same blind arrogance that the rest of the Gov suffers from. They send letters but don't read what is sent to them. They ask for donations and then ask us to foot the bill. The system has so many greedy hands trying to slice the pie at Washington that only crumbs fall to the people. Don't fall asleep because we finally have a minority leader in the "highest" office. Even if he were the man he claims to be, that entire structure of greed and ineptness is all throughout our country and Gov still.

I sent the following letter to Attorney General Holder, never got a response:
Dear Attorney General Holder:

Following are quotes from an article I read today:

"Attorney General Eric Holder has said that no one is above the law and that his office would follow the evidence. He has not appointed a special prosecutor.

President Obama said Holder will be the person who ultimately decides whether to prosecute Bush administration lawyers who wrote opinions providing a legal basis for interrogation techniques widely denounced as torture.

President Obama also said CIA agents who tortured prisoners will not be prosecuted."

Can you tell me if we are now a country with a two tier system of justice? It appears we are going to have one justice system for government officials, departments and agencies, and another for ordinary Americans who, by the way, do not take an oath to preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States.

If I stole a car last week, and am pulled over this week and arrested, can I say, this crime was committed in the past and we should move on, this is no time for retribution? Can all the people who are currently in jail be released, because this is no time for retribution and we have to move on?

It is clear to everyone that crimes were committed, our own laws and international treaties we signed were violated.

It is clear to everyone that the President, Vice President, Attorney General, National Security Advisor and other members of the Bush administration ordered these crimes, that the Justice Department lawyers in the OLC justified them at the request of the administration, and that CIA officers and others carried them out. It is not just the OLC lawyers who are at issue here.

They have all violated the law, as even Democratic members of Congress may have done by ignoring the violations of which they were made aware.

There must be some legal process to deal with these crimes. There must be an investigation by a special prosecutor, and indictments and charges must be brought against everyone involved, if warranted, then they must go to trial. There is no way around that under the laws of this country.

If President Obama doesnt want to uphold the laws for political reasons, then he must pardon the perpetrators of these crimes . To sweep these crimes under the rug for political reasons is to deny and make a mockery of the Constitution. A legal process to deal with these crimes is required. There is no way you can just ignore them and then tell our citizens, and other countries, that we must have rule of law and we must obey the laws.

Why must we obey the law when administrations and government employees who break the law are forgiven? How can you explain this?

These matters cannot just be put in the past with no accountability. And that accountability should apply to everyone involved, no matter what party they belong to. We tortured and in the process of that we also killed people. And there is to be no accountability for this? The OLC lawyers tortured the law to please their masters in the Bush administration. The CIA officers and contractors carried out these violations of the law without a second thought, and without pity. And we should move on? Then why is anyone charged with a crime that was committed in the past? If it were me, I would make the argument in court that I, too, should not be subject to retribution, that society should just move on and let it go and I should no more be held to account for the crimes I committed than the President and his administration are being held to account.

What other conclusions can we draw from this hypocritical stand that you and President Obama are taking?

I am just a regular citizen of the US & have no Super Powers, but I hope that the release of some people from Gitmo is a strike in the right direction.

I can understand that the US Government got ultra protective after 9/11, but I think they may have gone too far.

My hope is that the new US Government can come to diplomatic terms with our Arab friends.

I understand that the official position is one thing, but as human beings we should be able to connect as people.

It is certainly my hope that President Obama can help bridge this gap. But please understand that the President of the US is confined by the House & the Senate which is dictated by the people. The President's of some other Countries seem to have the advantage of Dictatorship to make their will known.

ibrahimtamerm, give the average American a break, we do not want to make war against Muslims, but we all need to defend ourselves against radical people of all persuasions.

White Supremicicists (sp), radical moslems, etc., they are all a danger to our families. Can't you understand that there are crazy, unstable people all over the World that don't give a damn about what we hold dear.

They try to politizise what is actually a non-political issue. We have different idea's & values on behavior which need to be addressed, but it seems as though this is more a humanitarian issue than a political one.

So give us a break for trying to correct the wrongs of the past, it takes time. Not a whole lot can be accomplished in the first 100 or 200 days of a new administration.

The question of holding the Cheney administration officials accountable has become moot. Obama clearly has no plans to reverse any of the draconian policies designed by Cheney and his cohorts. Even the announcement to close Gitmo was delivered with the news that Baghram prison would be expanded to almost double its size (obviously simply a substitute for Gitmo).

Furthermore, prisoners in Gitmo, Afghanistan, Egypt, Syria, Jordan etc...continue to be held. Are we supposed to believe that they are no longer being tortured simply because Obama is in office?

Bottom line. Obama is just as guilty of these crimes as the previous administration. Wake up and smell the humous America.

vpilsner, Your rhetoric may have been a little bit muddled, but your message came through loud & clear. There are several people in the upper regions of the former government who should be held responsible for these atrocities. In good faith, we need to make these people accountable for their actions

I am hoping that our current President can diffuse the harm that has been done in the past, but this is a huge undertaking.

May the Gods & Goddesses help us all.

Blessed Be

Jean

Torture is cruel no matter how it is used and viewed. People who are responsible for torture, no matter who they are, should be trialed and punished in public view. That way, the world knows and no misunderstanding occurs. There are several other ways of interrogating instead of using torture. Police uses many ways of interrogating a prisoner instead of using torture. No prisoner deserve dieing to get information out of.

I can understand if the military is following orders. They are put in a situation where there are officers above them that forces them to follow their orders, like a chain of command. If the military officers were doing what they were told, they were also innocent of torture crimes. The ones that are accountable are the ones that are at the top who ordered these people to do the torture. They should get punished, and hard.

Former George Bush accused Iraq of the torture that went on inside their prisons. But what right gives our side the right to torture prisoners. Two wrongs do not make a right. The three top people that were at the head of those prisons were George Bush, Cheney, and Secretary of Defense at the time when the pictures of torture came out publicly. If those officers at those prisons were following the orders from any of these three or all these people, they are just as guilty as the officers who carried the orders over.

What also stunned me was, how come nobody seen what they were doing was wrong before it got to the public eye. Nobody had the humanity to know what they were doing was wrong and they should of refused the order, or let the officer ordering do it themselves and if they get caught, they are the ones who gets punished, not everybody below them. When a commanding officer gives an order where common sense should come in, the person receiving the order should have the right to refuse.

Also, when it comes to trial, USA should not be the only country officiating the trial whereas the victim is from another country. That country should also officiate at the trial. That will be fair for both countries.

g/r I'm really po'd because I had a good response to your message that was pretty much in agreement with you. Somehow I must have screwed up & I lost the entire thing. What a Bummer, I have parts of it in my head but can't remember the whole thing. Anyhow, keep on making your voice known.

" Many Americans want to nurture an image of innocence and decency and yet most Americans want most of all to stay on top and continue to applaud clear victories in the Third World however achieved. "-- Richard Falk, professor

"However achieved"? I don't think so Mr.Falk.
There's an Army base in Kentucky that they are shutting down for 3 days for an ANTI-SUICIDE COUNCELLING event.

That that tells me that our troops,who are mostly good guys,just doing their job and following orders,are having a REALLY hard time waking up in the morning knowing that MILLIONS see them as the BAD GUYS,killing innocent men,women and children! Hence the huge ratio of suicides in the US armed forces right now.
Their consciences DISAGREE with "however achieved".
That's why they are topping themselves.
Not to mention the fact that they have been pumped with trial vaccines, medications for uppers and downers, and god knows what chemical exposure from ILLEGAL weaponry. Then they have to suffer the stigma of being labelled on military file as PSYCH DIAGNOSIS?
These sovereign troops are being tortured by our Govt. and thrown on the trash heap as dead lab-rats by corporate CEO's playing at politicians and 'statesmen'.
DISGRACEFUL!

Torture is inhumane by any standards of humanity. Those that indulge themselves in torture of any kind, whatever the rational, are destined to become recipients of a hell of their own making. Whatever your religious background you know at the core that this inhumanity will result in your demise.

I am a believer in all & no religion. My thoughts are that all persons are trying to reach a common goal. We all travel different paths, but eventually we all want to reach the same destination. All of these paths connect if we only have the wisdom to recognise the truth.

Those that are primarily concerned with monetary & personal gain are a blight on humanity & need to be stopped as they are causing most of the conflicts in the World. Conflicts are being caused by Corporations not by people. The people of the World can reach compromises if the Corporations are defeated.

As human beings we have the intelligence to know what is best for our countries & the natural resources it may contain. No country really needs a Mega-Corporation to come in & spend MEGA-BUCKS to rape the environment & destroy the lives of the indigionous people. There is always a better way.

We need to work together to defeat the Corporations & restore the rights of the native people & the local wildlife.

A hard task, but not impossible.

And they wonder why naive American Troops are coming home with PTSD and committing suicide in DROVES?
Could it be that the majority are not used to seeing kids tortured and murdered?
A bit different from Disney,Nascar and Baseball.
And most of it sanctioned by our OWN 'esteemed STATESMEN/WOMEN'.
How quickly we gave up "Liberty and Justice For All" in exchange for "the gloves are off".
"Pity the Nation", because as ADULTS, EVERY CHILD is OUR child.

http://www.gather.com/viewArticle.jsp?articleId=281474977671482&grpId=3659174697241980&nav=Groupspace

I love Your post,I agree with you he Us are getting all the heat
how can we become better if we look only at others and their mistakes?
let s try something different,let s start getting help from the pharmaceutical companies and instead of torturing let s get immediate answers
Why are we putting money before people?
with out the people the would be no money
any type of torture is a no no in my books but then what do we do?
how do we keep our self and loved ones safe?
we can t change what has been done till now,we can t change the policies that the US had or have but we can chose to disagree and to be loud enough for the world to here
I am lucky I had a terrible past and I learned that nothing is ever still,all changes and if we can learn from history we should be able to learn from our own experiences,we should be able to see what actually can work and what does not
I would not want to be under a Muslim extremist soldier,I am sure that the method of torture would not be as nice and well known as what the Us used,I see how they treat the own people,the one they are suppose to love for ever after ....no thank you
so what can we do to make the place a better place?
I don t care about the past,i don t need to see Justice but i need to see change and I would like to see a big "I am so sorry...."and monetary compensation and most of all the best counselors ever at their total disposal
What if i needed to know where my son was?
what if i needed to know where my mother was?
what would I do to get that information,knowing that there is a time factor involved,knowing that my mother could be dead if I did not get the information on time?
a mile in an other person shoe

(from another post)
I don't think we (the USA) should "torture" for several reasons:
1-If you inflict enough pain on somebody, eventually they will say anything you want to make it stop.
2-For the folks who tortured people 184 times; did they think after the 183rd time things would be different? what about the 151st time, or 76th time?
3-The prisoners have been in there for several years, what could they possibly know after all this time that would be of use?
4-It leaves our soldiers vulnerable to torture (which I'll address in a bit).
5-It makes the USA look very bad in the eyes of the world and only fans the flames of hatred of younger muslim generations towards the west.

That being said, I think the bar for what's considered torture has been lowered to ridiculous levels. Playing Abba music 24/7 isn't "torture" (at least in the context here, but that's another story). Bad tasting, low-variety foods isn't torture, as long as it's nutritious enough to sustain a healthy human, it's good enough. I don't want to hear about prisoners complaining that their lamb-chops are too well done or that their strawberry's are out of season. I believe that physical torture should be out of practice but methods of psychological "torture" aren't really torture at all. For example, solitary confinement is not torture, neither is sleep depravation by means of altering their environment (i.e. music, lights). Hitting somebody in the head with a pole every ten minutes so they can't sleep would be torture. Long hours of questioning under the hot lamp is not torture. Waterboarding has gotten so much attention because it falls near the line of physical and psychological torture. You make a person feel like they are drowning/dying but they aren't being drowned or killed. So on one hand, you are making them think of the impending doom by physically punishing them. I don't really see the point in this which is why I don't think waterboarding is right or particularly useful (see points 2 and 3). Whether or not they should or shouldn't be there in the first place needs to be looked at on an individual basis. Prisoners with evidence against them of crimes they've commited should be tried in court and punished accordingly.

Now the other side, the extremist muslims also torture yet they don't get any of the heat that the USA gets. They post videos of our citizens getting beheaded alive, with a pocket-knife and you don't hear anything about it other than a news headline on MSNBC's homepage for the day. They execute people at will, and also target non-military personel (journalists, photographers, etc). They drag bodies through the streets and burn people alive. These things are much worse than waterboarding. If you make the argument that you want to hold the USA to a higher standard then you can't be against the USA "policing" Iraq until they are self-sustaining. If you want to hold everybody to the same standards of torture then more pressure needs to be put on the extremist muslims who openly torture military and civilians alike. Thoughts?