I also do not believe that Ilan Pappe is a pariah in historical circles anywhere but in Israel and in the US where the truth about Israel's actions in Palestine is sanctioned. Ilan Pappe learned the truth about Israel's history in the 20th century empirically through his research. He has researched and corroborated Israeli military and government records with the testimony of Palestinian and Israeli persons who were present at the time events occurred.

If you want to know about historical relations between the arabs and the jews prior to Israel, another Israeli writer, Uri Avenery has some things to say about it as well.

The arab countries were much more tolerant of differences than their European, Christian counterparts through most of history since the beginning of the Christian era. At the moment, Israel treats all arab/palestinians the same, Christian and Muslim alike, so you are drawing a false boundary to consider them separately. One of the most eloquent Palestinian advocates was Edward Said, a Christian from Palestine whose families land was appropriated by the Israeli army in 1948.

Beyond that, Syria has a significant Christian popluation who are not persecuted or harrassed, and in Lebanon, the big fight is to get the Christian and Sunni groups to share power with the Shiite muslims who actually represent the majority of the population. Yet, it is the Shiite militia associated with Hezbollah that has driven the Israeli occupiers out of Lebanon twice so far. And, it is the Hezbollah organization that provides social services for the poor people in the south of Lebanon, not the government in Beriut.

When Israel attacked Lebanon last summer, Christians and Muslims both were given refuge in Syria without discrimination. And when they returned, both Muslims and Christians from the south of Lebanon celebrated Hezbollah's valliant defense of their land against the Israeli army.

Among the leadership of certain countries, the Christians, like the Israelis, are proxies for western interests, but among the people, that is generally not the case. I personally believe that this fight is not about Religion as our leaders would have us believe, but about Western Imperialism. It is not about jews and anti-semitism, but about building an enclave of western culture in middle of arab territory at the expense of the indigenous population. It is not about Christians vs Muslims, but about western control of arab resources.

I don't believe that Illan Pappe is one sided, he is just brave enough to write about the truth. He is not the first Israeli to write about the atrocities committed against the Palestinians.

Debois,

I think you are missing the point of my post.

My point was to dispute a previous statement that claimed that arabs & jews lived happily side by side in Israel before the state was established. Conflict existed long before that, and your post, whether we agree on the causes or not, seems to support my view.

No doubt there were acts of aggression by jews towards muslim palestinians. And yes, I do make a distinction between the christian palestinians and the muslim ones because there was generally a difference between how they related to the jewish population.

I am very familiar with Ilan Pappe's work. If you have done any serious research of his work I am sure you are aware that he is considered a pariah by mainstream historians from all sides of the political spectrum, not to mention that he's extremely one sided. So to refer to his work as the absolute, complete and universal truth is a more than a bit misleading.

1. It was the Muslims who allowed the Jews back to many parts of Palestine after they were forbidden from entering Jerusalem by the Byzantines and after the Crusades.
2. Palestinian identity existed way before 1948 as evident in writings, poetry and literature.
3. Most of my Palestinian friends in the US are Christians and they consider themselves as just Palestinians. Why do you keep only referring to Muslim Palestinians as if they are two nations? I know a Palestinian family that is half Christian and the other half Muslim.
4. Animosity did not build up between Palestinians and Jews until after an influx of Eurpean Zionist Jews. This was a reaction against what the indigenous people perceived as colonialism.
5. Ethnic cleansing against the indigenous Palestinian population began before 1948 and continues today! This is well documented by an Israeli scholar: Illan Pappe and others, http://www.amazon.co.uk/Ethnic-Cleansing-Palestine-Ilan-Pappe/dp/1851684670

Jbello,

I don't know where you get your "facts", but the Muslim Palestinians and Jews have not lived in peace when the area was controlled by muslims. There were periodic "cleansings" of the jewish population, such as in Hebron in 1929, and in several other well documented occurences which you can easily find if you look on the net.
In addition, palestenian muslims were never in control since the palestinian identity as we know it today did not exist before 1948. In fact, the term "Palestinian" was used to identify all the residents of the area, including the jews and christians. Before the state of Israel was established Israel/Palestine was under the control of various occupiers over the course of the last 2000 years. Most recently the (muslim) Ottoman empire (for about 400 years) and the British mandate for about 30 yeas after they won against the turks in world war 1.

In any case, I prefer to focus on the present as opposed to debating ancient history. But statements like "they lived in peace when the palestinians controlled the area" are just plain misleading, especially since you building a logical framework on top of that fallacy to infer that based on that fictional history, if the control of the area was going to be given to palestinians peace and harmony will reign supreme. That's just wrong.

Most of the animosity between the arabs and the jews is based on historical events and past wrong-doings (whether percieved or real). If the past was as rosy as you think it was, how did we get to where we are today?

The view of most Israelis (based on their majority elected parties...Kadima, Labor, Likkud) is that regardless of how the palestinian came into existence, there is a large group of people that deserves a solution to their national aspirations and to live in peace like any other group of people. Whether they call themselves "palestinian" or "arabs" or whatever does not matter. I am not going to say that the israelis are happy to make this compromise, but never the less they are willing to do it for peace.

Unfortunately, the majority of the palestinian population doesn't share the same view of tollerance and compromise (as based on their elected parties... Hamas)

The way things look now, it seems like war is inevitable. You need two sides to choose peace, but it only takes one side to choose a war, the other side will not have a choice.

I will admit, I am a retired soldier and I imagine my perspectives are colored accordingly. I do tend to look at complex political or social issues with just a surface inspection. You are also correct to say I consider war a natural outcome of human interaction (although I would never consider any war justified). I think humankind will always be at war on some level or another until we finally destroy ourselves. My view on middle easterners is rather simplistic I suppose, and I'm glad to have this forum to learn more and maybe get straightened out in the process.

However, I disagree that I have any predisposed notions concerning middle eastern culture based on ignorance. I'm no expert on any culture (not even my own) but I've been around the world three or four times (in the context of military service) and I've met a fair cross section of Middle Eastern personalities. I agree that we are all basically human underneath, however I would like to confine the discussion to issues, not individual perspectives (including yours and mine).

I think we can agree that there have always been wars. And although no one likes the idea of it, I don't believe that will change anytime soon. Recent Saudi and Syrian overtures aside, I fear more war is coming to the region. I agree that people as individuals are fruitful and peace loving, but taken as a whole, people take on a mob mentality where they are easily led and even more easily misled.

When we started this discussion I told you (in so many words) that I don't view either side as culturaally or morally superior to the other. I feel the most perinent issue is who is militarily superior. I readily concede that violence doesn't permanently resolve anything (although it resolved World War II), but historically societies have consistently chosen it as their medium of choice. Everyone realizes on an intellectual level that there are no real winners, but on some lesser, more instinctive level, people gravitate towards it. I suppose I have some slight bias for the policies and aspirations of this country since I live here, but overall I don't look at issues in the Middle East as what is morally right or wrong, but what is the least damaging of all the bad choices available. Someone once said, "Plan for the worst, hope for the best, and be flexible".

I want to say that I don't think anyone should be driven out of anywhere at this point. You seem to be comfortable with the barbaric standpoint that anyone who can win a war has a right to the spoils. You talk about issues being settled 'long ago' but clearly they aren't settled because one side is struggling in a military and diplomatic straight-jacket for it's very life, and the other is continuing to take more land. I also want to point out, at risk of validating your 'spoils to the winner' perspective, that it was the Israelis who took the land from the "Philistines" the last time too. Remember David and Goliath? David won. By that historical logic, we should be very nice to the Iranians as it was the Persian Emperor Cyrus who set the Israelis free and sent them home.

However, the Judeo Christian Bible is not History in any pure sense. Moreover, the Palestinians, like the Jews, are a Semitic people. Beyond that, the Muslim tradition is an child of the Christian tradition which is a child of the Judaic tradition. So, logically, these people ought to be able to live together. As it happens, when the Palestinians were in control, they did all live together in peace. Wouldn't it be nice if they could do that again.

But the current impasse isn't about religion. It is about imperialism. It is about cultural supremacy. The wars that that are being fought in the Middle East are illegal under international law. It is illegal under international law for one country to preemptively invade another. It is illegal under international law for a country to use military force to take land, and then occupy it with their own civilians and infrastructure. I'm not saying that no one else is breaking these laws. Look at China in Tibet. But we condemn them for that.

You seem to accept war as a law of nature. I don't. I think that the human race can move beyond that. More importantly, if we don't move beyond that, we risk destroying the very earth we live on. There is no longer any excuse for it. Time to grow up people. If you want to live in peace you have to demonstrate living in peace. Time to get together and investigate ways to mitigate global warming instead fighting about who is going to control the spigot on the oil tap, fighting over who has the best god (derivitavely speaking, it's the same one), fighting over whose culture is more worthy, more progressive, more cultured.. I think we can do better. But we have to make the choice.

Sometimes to make things work, we have to give them a chance. People in this country are terrified that if we withdraw those 'barbarians' in the Middle East will do something or other. But, truly, I don't know what. They are people like us, and they aren't stupid or crazy, at least not the ones I've encountered. They are going to have a shakedown, and then they will make peace. Their government may not look like ours, but it will be their choice.

Even Abdullah in Saudi Arabia is running around the Middle East and Northern Africa working on 'diplomacy' projects. I think he has seen the light. Bashar al Assad has repeatedly reached out to Israel. Syria is sheltering the majority of the Iraqi refugees despite the fact that no one is giving any aid to them. Last summer, they sheltered the Lebanese refugees. Sure their borders aren't secure. The US with all its size and power can't secure the Mexican Border. How can Syria be expected to secure the Iraqi and Lebanese borders in the middle of full scale wars on both sides.

I'm not against the US, or even Israel. The point is, we have the power to live in peace, to alleviate hunger and poverty, to address climate issues that are already becoming deadly in some parts of the world. Instead we are destroying entire countries in the name of 'democracy' and 'freedom'. What does 'freedom' mean in this context? We are destroying democratically elected governments that displease us. How does that promote 'democracy'? And how does fomenting chaos increase anyone's security?

Your first paragraph tells me that the real reason you are suspicious of the Middle Easterners is because you don't know them. I am saying, trust their humanity. Stop trying to destroy them long enough to get to know them. If we are as powerful as we like to think we are, that shouldn't be a problem. I also want to say that I love my soapbox, but I am really glad that you are watching Mosaic. It says that despite the actions of our government, you are an open minded person and doing exactly what I suggest. Thanks for being here.

I have to agree that I've never seen it, but I believe Iran is directly and indirectly killing people everyday in Iraq. And while they and the Saudi government come complete with all the diplomatic trappings, there is valid speculation as to who is the real political power in both those countries.
I also have to mostly agree with the assessment of Isreali and American religious influences in public policy (you stated the case far more eloquently than I am able), but not as it relates to policy today. Fringe religious groups in Israel and America today are no where near as influential as those in the Middle East. However, "Manifest Destiny" in the American past and God's promise to the Jews centuries ago were no doubt used to gain public acceptance of land grabbing by both governments. But the land itself was won on the battlefield, and these issues, rightly or wrongly, were settled long ago. It's past time to move on and embrace life. I don't know who the land in Palestine "rightly" belongs to. One could argue the Palestinians (Philistines) stole the land from the Jews by force even before it was stole from them. The point is that the Israelis have it now, and aren't going anywhere soon. Nobody can dispute the Palestinian right (even Arabic rights) to resist militarily and try to get back what they once had, I just say do it on the battlefield and leave God out of it. Personally, I don't think God cares one way or the other who "wins the game".
And finally, I agree that America is very frightening to a lot of middle easterners. They wage unjust wars in unjust causes for immoral gain. A lot of people, good and bad, are killed or displaced. But at the end of the day, it's a war. They've been waged rightly and wrongly throughout history and throughout the world since the cave man era, and at some point they end. Radical Islamism has no end until every non-muslim (and a fair number of moderate muslims) are killed. Is there really any sort of basis for comparison between the two?

As far as I know, Iran isn't killing anyone, and isn't threatening to kill anyone.
Iran hasn't invaded another country in modern history. True, the Saudi's don't want to be one-upped in the area, but they are perfectly capable of negotiating with their neighbors independently. They currently have a lot more weapons than Iran, and a lot more money, though their social infrastructure can't compare with the level of sophistication and modernization of Iran.

If you lived in Iraq or Afghanistan, or were from Nagasaki or Hiroshima, you might find the "US" a little more frightening. Meanwhile, the Bush administration has strong lobbying contacts with a Christian group who think that total war in the Middle East is their ticket to "Heaven". According Israeli historian, Ilan Pappe, Israel is a Secular state determined to take and hold, by any means necessary, a land that was given to them by "God". Apparently it's ok with this "God" of their secular state if they practice ethnic cleansing and trickle-down genocide to secure their ownership. There aren't any devils I feel comfortable with in this scenario.

I think the problem is that we are accustomed to hearing certain stories about the way things are. When we find out that they may not be accurate, it really is pretty scary. But if you want to be empowered in the world, you have to begin by finding out what is really going on. Of course, empowerment is itself pretty scary. Then you have to make responsible decisions. If you haven't seen The Matrix, see it. If you have, you will know what I mean when I say, it's time to "Take the Red Pill!"

I don't begrudge Iran (or any other muslim country) their aspirations of hegemony in the region. I also agree with most criticisms leveled at Israel by it's neighbors and I often despair of U.S. foreign policy in the region and the world at large. I beleive it to be based on ruthless self-interest and arrogance bordering on racial disdain.

But for all it's evils, the U.S. is like the devil you know. That doesn't make it any less wrong, just predictable and understandable, which I find a bit more comforting than policies based on theocratic principles. To advocate killing innocent people for any reason is perverse, but when it's done for material profit or political gain, you at least have a common starting point for negotiations. When people are killed for a religious idea, there really is nothing to talk about. I'm not sure the concept of right and wrong even exists at that point. If you can bring yourself to kill other people in the "service" of God (no matter what God you worship) you are the ultimate human perversion.

This type of fanaticism is a hundred times more frightening than anything the U.S. ever did, or ever could do.